🎙️Show Notes for Episode 034 of the IC PodcastNov 04, 2021
Our guest today is Brian Hoffmeyer, SVP Market Strategies at Beeline. Brian shares with us that right now they have “325 clients and 50 billion in spend running through their system every year.” That's a massive number. There is so much opportunity out there for independent consultants who know how to take advantage of it. Brian shares with us how to do just that.
Brian shares insights from his 17+ years working with the Fortune 1000 procurement and business teams who purchase contract labor and consulting. Listen in as Brian shares actionable tips and strategies that you can use to build and grow your IC business.
On this episode, I discuss:
[01:34] Meet Brian Hoffmeyer
[02:23] What Beeline is
[3:35] How an IC would interact with Beeline
[8:17] How the contingent workforce is shifting
[9:11] How Brian Hoffmeyer and Melisa met
[10:30] Current trends for IC from a demand perspective
[13:01] How to use a vendor management solution as a differentiator
[18:18] Some unique ways that ICs can land new clients
[22:19] Why you must clearly define your status as an IC
GUEST INFORMATION —
Brian Hoffmeyer, SVP Market Strategies at Beeline
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-hoffmeyer-3395b65\
Instagram - @homechefhoff, https://www.instagram.com/homechefhoff
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**note: This is an automated transcript, so please ignore spelling errors and grammar mistakes*
Welcome to the Grow Your Independent Consulting Business podcast. I'm Melisa Liberman, a fellow IC and business coach. On this podcast, I teach you to become a consistently booked independent consultant without becoming a pushy salesperson or working 24/7. If I can do it, you can too, listen on To find out how. Welcome back to the podcast today we have the biggest treat I am so excited to share with you our very first guest on the podcast one of my favorite people who I've known for, I haven't added it up 15 years at least. Without further ado, I will introduce him and ask him to introduce himself to you all. I'm excited for you to get to know him. His name is Brian Hoffmeyer. I call him Hoff. So, if you hear me saying Hoff, that is a sign of endearment when I call him Brian. It makes him nervous. So, welcome to the podcast. And I'd love for you to introduce yourself to everyone.
Great, thank you very much. And yeah, whenever I hear Brian, I think I'm in trouble. So, I'm glad you're gonna be calling me behalf though maybe I'll say something that gets me in trouble. You know, call me, Brian. So perfect. I'm very honored to be your first guest really excited about joining you today. So as Melisa See, I'm going to start calling you m because that's what I always refer to you. Let's do it. I'm Brian Hoffmeyer. I work for a company called Beeline. And I'll talk a little bit more about Beeline. And what we do here in a second. I'm beelines SVP for market strategies. And so, I do a number of different things for the company, including having global responsibility for our partner ecosystem, as well as doing some of our new product development work strategy work about what markets we should serve. And I do a lot of things like this, you know, kind of what I broadly would call thought leadership, going into conferences, including recently back in person again, which has been super exciting. But I love talking about our industry and the importance of what we do, I've developed a real passion for it. To answer your question. We've known each other for over 17 years now I'm coming up on 17 years of knowing you and I guess we'll talk about how we met at some point today. So, Beeline is what's known as a vendor Management System, or CMS for short. And our software, we make a software as a service product that's used as the system of record for managing all types of non-employee or contingent, or whatever you want to call it labor, including independent consultants, our system manages the end-to-end process for all of the different ways that our clients engage the really complicated and growing non-employee workforce. Our clients tend to be large organizations, you know, most of them are sort of quote unquote, names, you would know ranging from Shell Oil to Comcast to Accenture, you know, across really a number of, you know, almost all major industry verticals, all regions of the world. And our clients use our software because it helps them really get their hands around this increasingly critical part of their workforce. And in so doing, gain automation, efficiency, improve quality compliance with rules and regulations, which I know we'll talk about today. And ultimately, visibility so they can make better business decisions ultimately around how does work get done.
Great half. So, before we talk about how we met, just give me like a really specific example, if I'm an independent consultant, tell me like what my interaction with Beeline would be and, and kind of give that viewpoint?
Great, great question. Let me let me even start before an independent consultant would engage with our system. The process starts when what I'll broadly call a hiring manager, some employee of one of our clients, decides that work needs to get done right, no matter what they do for the company, you let's say it's somebody in it that's doing a big project, right? And they say, you know, I've got this work that needs to get done. And, you know, the first thing they decide is, do I have somebody on my team that can do that work? Is there somebody within our organization, perhaps that can do that work that you know, is on the bench, if you will, and then if they decide that they're, there's not then they have to decide, okay, do I go outside and look for this work to get done? And that leads to a number of choices, the first of which is, am I going to hire somebody permanently to do this work? Or is this work temporary in nature, and so the best way to get it done is to go outside and that's where Beeline comes into play. And we give our users a number of tools to help them through this decision, you know, sort of guided decision making guided buying. And one of the things they could decide, you know, there's a lot different ways that companies engage non employees, you know, as they engage individual temporary workers through a supplier, you know, an organization like Ron Stott or a deco or a Regis, you know, any number of organizations, sometimes they outsource a whole scope of work to a third party. So, you know, don't be this website, and I don't care how many people it takes you to do it, I these are just the deliverables I want to get done. And then sometimes they decide that, you know, they want to go out for specific expertise directly to independent workers, independent consultants, that they happen to know somebody that's worked for them in the past, in some way, there's an employee and they've moved on, they've retired, they, you know, as a contractor, or somebody that this happens to be known to them through their network. When they make that decision, there's a specific process that happens in the line where that a specific type of request would then go out for that kind of worker, generally, the independent consultants can interact with Beeline in a couple of different ways. One might be as the engagement is being created, you know, answering questions to make sure that they truly are an independent consultant, you certainly know and as your listeners know, you know, there's a lot of rules about whether somebody is truly independent or not, and can be classified in that way and paid via 1099 versus a W two. And it's incredibly important to get those things right. And so you know, answering questions about your business and the nature of the work that's being done to make sure that those IRS rules and regulations are adhered to. And then the other thing is, once the work is being done, generally, the independent consultant is going to be interacting with beeline to enter their time if they're being paid on time and materials basis, or, as is more often the case with independent work, they're going to be entering what we would call a request for payment saying, I've done this deliverable we agreed to now pay me for you know, so whether that deliverable is on some unit of work other than time, I don't know why this came up like photographs taken or it's based on you know, I've completed this phase of a project and now you OB X, they're unreal, that request and beeline to ultimately get paid.
Yep. Okay. So what I hear you saying off is for the last 17 years, if that's the right number, for the last 17 years, you've really worked in the space of helping fortune 1000 organizations primarily, figure out how they're going to leverage their external workforce, including independent consultants, and you're really talking to buyers of independent consultants work on a day to day basis, and you see billions of dollars going through your software, some of which is for independent consultant type work. So, you've got a really interesting vantage point on this industry, from the buyer side from the consulting buyer's perspective. So, I'm excited to ask you some more specific questions about that,
for sure. Set a little more context is that I love talking to our clients about this, because one of the things that we've really seen is, and I refer to it already is, you know, the contingent workforce as a percentage of the overall workforce has grown in my 17 years of doing this, and it's grown and certainly in terms of what number of workers or not employees versus employees, it's grown and what companies spend on it. But I think most importantly, and most interestingly, it's grown in how critical it is to work getting done in product, no matter what our clients make, whether they build a bulldozer, they're consulting or build software, they can't do it without their nonemployees. And that's a real like, sort of seismic shift. I think in kind of how work gets done. Beeline right now we've got 325 clients and 50 billion in span running through our system every year. So that's a massive number. So, we see a whole lot across our client base.
Yeah, so much opportunity out there for independent consultants if they know how to take advantage of it for sure. Yeah. Let's switch gears just for a moment. And off of the business side. I want to hear the story of how we met How do you describe it?
So, I mean, literally about 17 years ago today was around this time, I was unhappy at my then current job and started looking and I think it was on monster I saw a job ad for lack of a better term that you would place looking for a product manager and I applied for it. And I think within 10 minutes, you called me it was a quick turnaround. So, you must have been like either desperate or sitting at your desk and saw the email that you had a new applicant. So, we had an initial conversation over the phone. And you know, there was mutual interest and excitement about the potential of me coming to work for what was then called Ikki navigator and then we first met in person not soon after that though. The story I'll tell is that I got there and it was a small startup at the time. So, there's no receptionist, I somehow found my way into the lobby into the waiting area. And then you kept me waiting for about 45 minutes for our initial interview, because you were busy doing something
terrible, terrible hiring practices.
So, it all worked out.
Yeah, it all worked out. And you're still there. And I left. So, so good. The last man standing, I think one of a couple.
Not very many of the people left him around that time.
No, no. Okay, so let's switch gears back and talk a little bit about what kind of trends are you seeing from the demand side? So, if you're thinking about this, as an independent consultant, kind of share with them, what you're seeing, from a demand perspective from those corporate clients that you work with?
Yeah, first and foremost, you know, one of the things that this is based on is a big trend we're seeing from our clients is that no matter what kind of contract labor that they're talking about, they want to make sure that it's captured and managed in a system in a program. And I think that's really important for people to know, because that didn't use to be the case, you know, many of our clients would only manage some smaller percentage of their overall contingent Labor Workforce, their contingent labor spend in our tool. And so, we're always working to grow with those clients and get the rest of that spend captured. And I think one of the sorts of hidden benefits, if you will, of the pandemic was, it opened up a lot of clients eyes when I don't remember the exact dates, but let's say from March 9 of 2020, to march 10, of 2020, all of a sudden, they had to go to a completely remote workforce, right. And so, they started asking themselves questions like, What are we going to do with all these people that aren't our employees? Who are they? Where are they? Do they have the tools that they need to work remotely? Do I know how to get in contact with them? Are they healthy, all of these things became suddenly, you know, incredibly important questions? And so, we saw a big uptick in clients wanting to capture all of their contingent labor spend, and that included independent consultants as one of those because often, in the free COVID world, one of the categories that is often harder to capture in DMS, like ours was independent consultants for a number of different reasons. You know, one of them being, you know, clients would say, oh, I don't use ICS. And your listeners can't see me making air quotes, but like that, that always practice up when people say that because it's almost 100% Not true. They're either purposefully or ignoring it, or just pretending it isn't happening, right. And then the other is, you know, a lot of times, especially with more senior independent consultants, those folks have very senior level relationships in large organizations, and, you know, those senior level people that our clients are like, they don't want to put these valuable resources through additional hoops that they have to jump.
Yeah. So with that trend, Hoff, I hear you saying more clients are capturing all of their external workforce, including independent consultants, is there anything that you see as a way for independent consultants, if their customer is using a vendor management solution like Beeline as a way to leverage this as a differentiator for them?
You know, I think maybe back to the trend thing, because I meant to say this didn't, but I think clients are certainly using and more open to independent workers, I think for a number of different reasons. One of the big ones is just related to, you know, sort of talent shortages, right? You know, we hear about that almost ad nauseum. And however, you choose to consume, news, you know, companies can't find workers to get work done. And so, they're open to a lot of things that they weren't previously open to create opportunities for independent consultants, one of the big ones being remote work, you know, where, again, pre-pandemic, even if they have a company allowed permanent workers to work remotely, almost invariably, anybody who was a contractor wasn't allowed to work remotely. And I know that doesn't apply as much to independent consultants, but they also were pretty geographically constrained about where to look right now, people are very, very open to, even though I'm based in Denver, Colorado, if I can find somebody in Des Moines, Iowa to get this work done. I'm going to do it. So I think that's one. And then the other thing is, we hear about all these other talent related trends, and one that I was hearing a lot last week, people talking about digital transformation, right? And so companies of all types are trying to transform digitally, you know, do new things. And even if they make bulldozers for a living, they're trying to create more online presence, more digital interactions, and so that's caused them to have to go outside their normal place to look for expertise. And related to that is your competitors for talent? Aren't your competitors that you're competing against from a business perspective? Generally, I mean, obviously, in the case of, like, specialized knowledge, yeah, that's true. But, you know, if you're looking for data scientists, your competitors, or anybody else who's looking for data scientists, it's not just the company that's across the street from your physical location, it's any company in the world. And so that's really made companies open up to all the possibilities of because they just need to get things done. And then I think, increasingly, specialized knowledge is driving this use of, of independence as well, as well as people's desire to be independent consultants, we see this all the time, you know, folks that have some specialized skill set, and wanting to move from company to company to grow their own experience, and manage their own work life balance, and they do something for three months and do another thing, or I'm going to do this thing for these four hours today. And this other thing for these other four hours, you know, so that all of these things kind of are, like piling up all rolling downhill and creating momentum around this.
Yeah, that sounds so exciting to me. One thing that I heard you say, just to drill into a little bit more, is thinking about industries that might be laggards in terms of some of the transformation that's happening right now, in terms of remote workforce, and digital transformation. And all of the changes that are occurring so rapidly with the way companies are doing business, and really seeing that as opportunity that maybe independent consultants hadn't thought of before, because it's the norm,
you're like, let's use the data science example to like, your potential client isn't just software companies, right? It's any company that has large reams of data and wants to mine it to figure things out. And so I think that's a, you know, something people should be looking for is like, what is this company trying to achieve? And what are the economic conditions that they're being faced with? And how can I uniquely bring value to them that they're not going to have, you know, what insights do I have about their business that they don't yet know themselves? And I think back to one of my, if I have a favorite sales methodology is the Challenger sales methodology. It's pretty famous, well-known sales methodology. It talks a lot about teaching tailoring and taking control, right. So teaching your potential prospect, which is what we're talking about here, something they don't know, that only you can uniquely deliver to them. And it's kind of one-on-one stuff, but it's, it's a different approach than other selling methodologies. And so, you reckon this is something we do with our clients is really trying to understand, you know, how does client ABC, for us, how do they ultimately use contingent workforce? Why do they use it? What business goals is it helping them achieve? And so, I think for the listeners, the more you can understand about those things, you can go to a potential contacted, you know, in your network and say, Hey, I know that your company is experiencing this. Here's what I would suggest, here's what I would offer, you may create demand for yourself that that person didn't even know they have.
Yeah, yeah, that's such gold. Thank you, Hoff. That'll lead us into the next question was, what are some unique ways or tips that you've seen that consultants might be able to leverage landing clients?
I mean, I think there's some basic things. Right. And we talked about, you know, expertise. You know, I think one of the things is to be aware that most large corporations are very risk adverse, right. And so one of the reasons they use a system such as ours is to make sure that they're categorizing independent workers correctly, you know, can they legally pay them on a 1099 versus them having to be a W two employee of some other organization. And so I think independent consultants need to be aware of those risks that their client is thinking about, and showing their client, how they're going to make sure that they don't expose them to those risks, right. And so that I think includes trying to, you know, this may be a bit self-serving, but trying to work within a system like Beeline versus around it, but then also doing things that, you know, help you pass those tests of truly being independent, you know, delivering a unique product, you know, that the company can't do themselves having multiple gigs that you're working on. So, you're not solely dependent on a particular company, having the right equipment, if you need equipment to do your particular job, whatever it is, the right insurance, all those things, because those will help tick the boxes that reduce those barriers to entry. Because you know, companies are worried about those kinds of things. And then I think you just re-emphasize it, you know, like, really finding, you know, what is that niche? What is the thing that you uniquely can do that your competitors don't need to go back to server business 101 of what is a true differentiator? You know, because it's probably not like project management, you know, and apologies to print managers that are out there, but you have to find ways to, or if that's what you do, why is it the way you do it, you know, so much better. And again, you know, to the point earlier, really work your network, think, you know, outside of like, you know, my background was in vertical XYZ, but I know that some other industry is experiencing problems that I can solve, and how do I get to those people through my network? Yeah, I get you, I think the other one is look to, you know, especially if you have a really unique skill sets, it may make sense to go to some of the service providers that work in this industry, and make sure that they're aware of them, you know, the big one, the other, I've thrown out a lot of acronyms, but one of the really big components of our industry, or what quarter called managed service providers MSPs. Think of MSP as a business process outsourcing arrangement that companies make where they say, I don't have the expertise or the resources to manage my own non-employee workforce. So, I'm going to, you know, outsource that to a third party to manage the date both the day to day sort of tactical operational pieces of that the processes, but also to give me strategic advice. And so, you know, most of the MSPs that are out there are part of larger staffing companies. And so I think, especially if you, you know, have a really unique skill set, making sure that those folks are aware of them, you know, use an existing client to introduce you to their MSP who may think of you in the future, or if you have a relationship with an agency of record, you know, so called Pay roller, make sure that they are aware, like, this is not just a one-time thing for me, you know, don't think of me just for the client that that you initially gate engage me with thanking me for other clients as well, because many of those organizations are, they spend time and money onboarding their independent consultants the first time they work with them, and they end up making more if they can get that person additional gigs. And so making sure that they know that is really important.
Yeah, another scenario that I would share, which is a personal one, I still have a few corporate clients that I work with, from a consulting perspective, in addition to my coaching practice, and ironically, you know, I met one hiring manager, and they wanted to hire me to do some consulting and coaching work at a large fortune 10 company. And so, as I was going through this onboarding process that Hafez describing, you know, they were walking me through the process to validate that I was independent, do I have marketing? Do I have more than one client? Do I have insurance, just like cough described that list. And then as I went through this process, I realized that they were vetting me and going to put me into beeline to enter my invoices. So, it was quite an interesting turn of events to be put back into the software that I helped off create a long time ago. But you know, with that being said, why I brought up that scenario is that, now that I'm in kind of an approved vendor, if you will, within that organization, then I keep getting follow on work from other departments and business units and that kind of thing. And so, I think that's another use case, if you will, half of where an independent consultant can network, and kind of get their foot in the door at a large organization. And, you know, get into a vendor list of some sort of BMS of some sort, and then potentially use that as a differentiator to say, I'm already fully vetted to work in this organization, because the onboarding is, you know, really shortened tremendously compared to what it would normally be to bring on a new vendor in that type of a company.
Yeah, that's a really good point. And, you know, I think it really emphasizes the idea that like, making sure that you're, you're following the process and ticking all the boxes, because, you know, our clients think about those things, right. And that's part of how they evaluate the work that was done. It's not just like the work that was done, it was how it was done. If you know, you did a good job, but you're kind of a jerk about it, the chances of you getting that follow on assignments are harder. And this is one of the we're actually we really help our clients. Look, we call these redeployments, right, you know, rather than use a different person each time, use the same person over and over because not only are they already on boarded, but like showing that you know, how to work within that client's environment. And you know, how things get done there and, you know, like, how to find your way to the cafeteria or whatever. Like all those little things really help and so we actually recommend when people are a little insight on Beeline when people are entering requisitions into Beeline will actually make suggestions of folks that are already on assignment there could be done soon. that could do that job. Because again, it's going to be faster, probably higher quality, because it's a known thing. One thing I'll say about this, some of you said triggered in me, you know, at times, independent consultants may find it hard to network within a company, because unfortunately, very unfortunately, non-employees broadly are often treated as less than at companies, right. And a lot of that's based on very, very outdated, you know, beliefs and sort of very rigid conservative from a legal perspective view about things like CO employment and, and what you can and can't do with contractors, you know, that you hear all these stories about, like, you know, contractors can't come to the Christmas party and contracts have a different colored badge and all these things. And make no mistake, those are outdated rules that shouldn't apply anymore. And they're dumb if somebody is critical to your workforce, why wouldn't you make them feel included as part of it, but I just say this, as you may find, like, you know, you go to your the person who's directing your work and paying for it, they may say, I can't do that, because you're not an employee in trouble. And again, that's an opportunity to educate and to share with them. Well, that's actually not the case any longer, you know, lawsuits that happened in 1990. In some cases, that precedent has now been changed. So, but it is an attitude that is, you know, it takes a long time to change the direction of the kinds of clients that we're talking about here that are, you know, like you mentioned a fortune, fortune 10 company, they don't move on move on a dime about anything.
No, they don't. I think that's so interesting, though, is and you highlight something that's important, which is really as an independent consultant, positioning yourself in a way that you are an expert in what you do, you are someone who's bringing specialization to the table, and some body of knowledge, or a proprietary process of some sorts, that probably comes naturally to you, you don't even realize that you have this in your head. So, getting that out of your head is important, and then selling it to the client in that way. And helping them to see that whatever obstacle they might think they have, internally, are overcome a bowl. And you've seen that time and time again, within the clients that you that you work with.
Yeah, I think it's such a great point is like, you know, really practice your pitch, you know, be good at selling you, you know, like, you're not only the person responsible for delivery, but in many cases, you are the salesperson, right? And all of it. Yeah, absolutely. Every hat. So, my dad, when he retired from working for the government for years, went into business as an independent consultant. And his bad dad joke was he was both the President and the janitor of his company. But I mean,
yeah, so we are presidents and janitors over here on this podcast. So good, although I don't know what we're cleaning just our house, just start home office probably,
as long as you keep the view to just what's behind you. And you know, everything else can be a mess, right?
That's right. That's right, exactly. Well, half, it's been so fun talking with you, before we talk about where people can find you. And some more on the personal side of it. Tell me Is there anything else you wanted to share today with the independent consultants,
sort of reemphasize some of the points of making sure that you understand what the rules are that apply to you being classified as an independent consultant, and how the companies that you're selling to think about ICS and the processes that you're gonna have to go through and making sure that you can, you can answer those questions correctly and comply with those processes. So that's one from you know, a business perspective, and then this really doubling down on this idea that you can, because of what's going on in the world today, with remote work, with openness to independent work, with companies looking for kinds of talent that you wouldn't traditionally think they would, you know, look to diversify your portfolio, there's this opportunity to do so to grow your business.
Well, thank you so much off today for your insights and for sharing so much that we don't think of too much on the independent consultant side as much we're kind of in the zone of client delivery and thinking about our businesses. But to hear your perspective about what it looks like from a buyer's perspective, what it looks like from more on the company side and what they're thinking about and what their hesitations and obstacles might be on their side that are, you know, really easily overcome a bowl if that's a word, if you just put a little bit of time and attention to thinking about those things with respect to your independent consulting business, so I appreciate that. And I just want to also share with you Hoff is an amazing, amazing I think self-taught chef, would you say self-taught mostly about your Tell me about your kind of your own side gig are your own what you've got going on, I want to go check you out.
Yeah, so I certainly welcome anyone reaching out to me. First and foremost, I'm very passionate about the importance of contingent labor broadly. And so, if anyone wants to talk, you know, I'm easily easy to find on LinkedIn at Brian Hoffmeyer. So, feel free to reach out, I'm glad to chat. On a personal front, I love to cook I wouldn't go so far as to call myself a chef because I'm not formally trained. And I've never worked in a restaurant. But over the years, I've taught myself a lot about cooking, I love to cook, my wife and I host dinner parties as often as we can, which is the frequency is increasing again, which is pretty exciting. At the start of the pandemic, one of my friends, you know, we were all sort of sitting around, um, you know, that we couldn't have friends over, one of my friends said, why don't you start teaching us how to cook. And so that led to me changing my Instagram name two, boom, Chef Hoff. So, I'm at home chef off on Instagram, if anyone wants to follow me. So, I spent a lot of time doing little video lessons of how to make various foods cocktails as well, because I love a good cocktail. I spent the first sort of pandemic we're making a difference taco every Taco Tuesday for a year. So, 52 unique tacos got made that year. And then, at the end of the year, fans, including you, and we're saying what's next and making suggestions and much to maybe some people's chagrin, I decided to do 52 weeks of Meatless meals. So I'm about today, I normally do get on Meatless Monday. So today is week 11 of Meatless meals, and so trying to get more creative with vegetables, which is, in my view, good for our bodies and good for the planet. I'm not switching to meatless entirely as if anyone goes to my Instagram, they will see very quickly but once in a while is a good thing. So
well, I will say as the daughter of a rancher, I am definitely not meatless, but I love following his posts and the cocktails are amazing. And all of the vegetables don't even look like vegetables. It's like it's so incredible the meals that you come up with. So, it's really fun to first of all, I will emphasize if he had PAF just offered for you to reach out to him on LinkedIn, I would highly recommend doing that. That is an incredibly generous offer. And he is a wealth of knowledge. So, tell him that I sent you and so you heard us on this podcast, don't not do that. And then also go follow him on Instagram because it's really fun to see what he comes up with. And I don't know. It's a lot of weeks. 52 weeks of plantlets. What's the word? Meatless meal?
Yeah, I mean, I even got tired of tacos after 15 Tacos. So that's saying something.
That's great. Well, thank you for being so generous with your time and your advice today. We really appreciate it. We'll put all the links to find you in the show notes. And I would love to have you on again. So
it was great to be here. Very honored to be your first guest.
Thanks, Hoff. I appreciate you.
I appreciate you.
Thanks for joining me this week on the Grow Your Independent Consulting Business podcast. If you like today's episode, I have three quick next steps for you. First, click Subscribe on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to make sure you don't miss future episodes. Next, leave me a review in your podcast app so other independent consultants can find it benefit to and finally to put the ideas from today's episode into action. Head over to Melisaliberman.com for the show notes and more resources to help you grow your consulting practice from your first few projects into a full-fledged business. See you next week.